Can you recognize the signs of burnout, and do you know how to recover? Join me and Dr Amelia Knight Pinkston, a veterinarian and integrative health and life coach, as we journey through her inspiring path from a burnt-out vet to a thriving human being.
She has created a program that shows us actionable tools for beating burnout in four main steps. You'll discover how moments of mindfulness can be transformative for your entire workspace. Tune in and let's redefine success in veterinary medicine together.
More about Dr. Knight Pinkston:
Dr. Amelia is a multi-passionate integrative health and life coach, entrepreneur, and recovered burnt out vet passionate about creating a new narrative around what true health and success look like - they should add pleasure, energy, and fulfillment to your life rather than deplete them.
Since earning her veterinary degree and VBMA certificate from the University of Penn in 2014, Amelia has worked in small animal general practice, urgent care, and locum which has provided the opportunity to work in over 30 different hospitals including both toxic and thriving cultures. That experience combined with her extensive and holistic training and personal journey recovering from burnout has given her a unique perspective and fuels her passion to create positive change. Her mission is to beat burnout in the veterinary profession by empowering individuals and hospitals to embrace a new norm where we put our “oxygen mask” on first and where workplaces foster an environment where it's convenient to thrive. She outlines how we can make that a reality starting today in her free series for the veterinary community called “Beat The Burnout: What We Should Have Learned In Veterinary School”.
In 2020, Amelia founded Life Boost with Amelia where she offers 1-on-1 and group coaching, self-paced programs, and workplace wellbeing consulting to help animal lovers unleash their most confident, energized, and healthy self. Her approach combines an evidence-based understanding of how the body and brain work - including the unconscious mind - with a holistic approach that honors what their heart needs to create real sustainable change that feels like a breath of fresh air. She has certifications in integrative nutrition health coaching, integrative life coaching and change work, hypnosis, and medical veterinary acupuncture, and is the co-chair of the Veterinary Genesis Initiative. She shares wellbeing content in a variety of ways including her Life Boost with Amelia podcast, writing for blogs and publications, speaking events, emails to her community, and social media.
Amelia lives in North Carolina with her husband and two dogs, Jameson and Woodford. Things that bring her joy include spending time in nature, being active (whether that’s hiking, strength training, yoga, walks, impromptu dance parties, or something new), experimenting and creating new nourishing recipes in the kitchen, traveling, learning, and jumping baby goats.
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Do you feel like it's possible to find joy and positive change within veterinary medicine? Are you looking for a community that's striving for fulfillment rather than perfection? Hey there, I'm Dr. Stacey Cordivano. I want veterinarians to learn to be happier, healthier, wealthier, and more grateful for the lives that we've created. On this podcast I will speak with outside of the box thinkers to hear new ideas on ways to improve our day to day lives. Welcome to The Whole Veterinarian. Hey there, I'm really excited to share this next interview with you. My guest and I connected pretty immediately on Instagram and over the internet, and it's been really fun to get to know her better. Dr. Amelia Knight Pinkston is an integrative health and life coach and entrepreneur and a recovered burnt out veterinarian. She is passionate about creating a new narrative around what true health and success look like. They should add pleasure, energy and fulfillment to your life rather than deplete them. Since earning her VMD in 2014. Amelia has worked in small animal general practice urgent care and Logam, which has provided her the opportunity to work in over 30 different hospitals ranging from toxic to thriving. That experience combined with her extensive training and health and life coaching, change, work and even hypnosis, and her personal journey recovering from burnout has given her a unique perspective and fuels her mission to beat burnout and vet med. She founded LifeBoost with Amelia in 2020, where she helps animal lovers unleash their most competent, energized and healthy self. And stay tuned to the end of this episode. Or check out the show notes to find out all the ways in which you can work with her more directly. I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did, please stay in touch with both of us and let us know what you think. Platinum performance is proud to support the whole veterinarian. For nearly 30 years we've stood beside veterinarians with advanced nutrition for the health of your patients and practice, a platinum performance, we know the power of nutrition starts within. Hi, Amelia, thank you so much for being here. How are you? Hey, good. Thank you for having me. I'm so glad we connected. And I want well, let's say I know a little bit about you because we've been friends on Instagram for a little while. But I was hoping you could tell listeners a little bit more about you and how you got to this place in your life where you're at currently. Yeah, absolutely. So I feel like my name kind of summarizes my journey a little bit. My name Amelia means industrious. And that drive to work hard, is really what led me to like the lowest and highest points of my life. Like, at the lowest point, I was a burnout vet. I just deeply regretted my decision to become a vet. And like so many of us, you know, I was sick. So when I decided that I wanted to, and I was, you know, living my dream, and it kind of felt like a nightmare. I just was exhausted, I felt stuck. And I had a lot of regret, and even physically, and I felt like I was doing the things that I should be to be healthy. And yet I was exhausted. I was experiencing brain fog. Every afternoon, I was having these crippling stomach aches that would randomly happen. And I just didn't know what doctors were like we don't really know. And then fast forward to the highest point I feel like is where I am now. It's where I've been able to recover from burnout, I still work as a relief FET. But I've been able to pursue other passions to like health and life coaching the change work and really working to create positive change in the vet profession. And I think the difference between those two is that I learned how to be working hard in a way that's really supporting my energy. So at the end of the day, I still have that energy left. And I'm also now more like my biggest cheerleader compared to like my biggest critic, and that has been really huge. Awesome. And we're definitely going to dive into how you do that and how you teach other people to do that. I'm curious, though, how did you finally recognize that you were in this major burnout phase? Yeah. I was in denial for a really long time. And I think there were a couple of things that just slowly helped me to realize As how burnt out I really was, like I mentioned, you know, I felt like I was healthy. And because I was eating pretty healthy, I was working out a lot because that was like my form of stress management. And I was even telling myself that I had good energy. And yet there were these things that kept happening with my body. Like, every day, like after lunch I just had was this brain fog feeling of like, things were in slow motion. And I just felt like kind of dissociated from things. And like, I remember the day that I was like, maybe other people don't feel like feel that maybe that's not normal, or those stomach aches that I just kept having. And that low energy, even though I was working out, in general, I felt exhausted. And I finally just started to get curious about why was I experiencing that. And I visited with a functional medicine nurse practitioner and sitting in her office, and she just asked me such a simple question. I'm like, Are you happy as a veterinarian, and I just suddenly, like, almost burst into tears is just like, his huge wave of emotions that I didn't even know were inside of me. And that was definitely a wake up call of because I was very good at internalizing everything, telling myself, you know, people ask, like, how are you doing, like, busy, but but good, you know, things are stressful, but and then I would say all the things I loved about Vet Med, because I think I was trying to convince myself, you know, because the alternative reality that my dream was not what I thought it would be, it was a lot to accept. So that's what slowly led me to start understanding what was happening with my body and starting to really be honest about my stress level. Yeah, I can relate to so much of your story already. And the funny thing is, there's something about doctors offices, my friend, missy, and I talk about this all the time, because we end up crying in doctors offices, when we're like, kind of at our low points. And we're like, what is it about the quest? Like they just asked the right question. It's very interesting. Yeah, it makes for sure. Okay, so before we start digging into, you know, some of the work that you're doing and the content that you're putting out, which is amazing. I'm curious, how do you define burnout when you're talking about veterinary professionals? Yeah, I think of it in a few ways. You know, I don't know the exact definition. But I think of it as just being, you know, physically, mentally and emotionally drained. And I think a lot of the signs are, that you're stuck in survival mode, there can be signs of like, the stress or trauma response that you are stuck in, and maybe without even knowing, and those can look like things like people pleasing, perfectionism, you know, not being able to slow down, or, you know, in that freeze mode of really not wanting to be around anyone that fight just being really argumentative or irritable easily, when you're not even really realizing that. Yeah, so pretty much every veterinary professional. Okay, what does why we're talking about this yet again, right? Because I just, I think both of us agree, we can't really talk about it enough. I find that I come across people who don't even recognize that they're burned out. And I'm curious if that happens to you, too, and what you do to help people maybe recognize that they are in this survival mode? Yeah, I absolutely see it all the time. It's one of the big lightbulb moments that a lot of people have when I'm talking to them early on, I think a tough thing, at least for me is that I tied my personality and identity to some of those trauma responses, like the people pleasing and perfectionism, like always needing to do more like rest felt really uncomfortable, like always wanting to like go above and beyond for other people. overscheduling like, I just thought that that was the type of person that I was. And so they didn't even like cross my mind that I could be different. And I think that by sharing some of the signs of being stuck in the like fight flight freeze, or fawn, those stress or trauma responses. I think that is a way that can help people to start getting to start being curious about Hmm, maybe I am kind of stuck in these and like getting curious about like when did that first star or you know, is this something that is making my life harder than it has to be? I think it's helpful to also do a little check, you know, like, is this negatively influencing the way that you're feeling? Physically? Because it's really easy for us to just like, consciously be like, I'm fine. I kind of in denial, but our bodies have so much wisdom. And that's one thing I really had to learn the hard way is that if you do really do like a little survey of your body, you know, and your energy, like, how is my energy? And, you know, how is my gut health? Am I having headaches all the time? Am I getting sick a lot? Am I having trouble focusing? Our body is really going to tell us that it's maybe not getting what it needs. And that can be, I think, a helpful way of starting to differentiate, are you really driven and high achieving in a way that's sustainable? Or are you depleting your energy and just running on empty? Yeah, I love that. I mean, I think we all had to be high achievers, and it served us really well, for a long time. But then at some point, it stops serving us. And sometimes we don't even know. Yeah, that's great advice. Okay. So you have a post that I saw, and I absolutely loved, called four steps to beating burnout. And I love it. Because I think burnout is this big, sort of a amorphous topic, and people know about it, but it's a little bit hard to wrap your head around sometimes, which is, I think, why we come across people that don't even recognize that they're in it. And so if they do recognize it, then you're kind of like, okay, what do I like, I take time off of work, like, I don't know how to even begin. And I think a lot of what's out there is a little too fluffy, or like surface level, as far as treating. So I'm, that's why I love this. So I want to go through these four steps. And we're gonna have so much to talk about this. Who knows, this may be two parts, we'll see. Okay, but number one, you say is shift out of survival mode. So we kind of already started talking about that, but say a little bit more. Yeah, I think that's the first step right, is that we need to be feeling safe. Because you really can't be thinking through things if you are stuck in survival mode. And I think, you know, like we've talked about it, we see that need to always be busy, you know, are seeing cynicism, and people pleasing, and so many signs that as a profession, we are stuck in survival mode. And so my goal is really to empower every single veterinary professional with anti anxiety tools that they can use, absolutely anywhere, like even in the middle of a stressful surgery, in the middle of a challenging conversation with a difficult client that helps to tell your body to shift into a calmer state, because we can't consciously convince ourselves, I just, I shouldn't be stressed, or I'm okay, you know, our body needs that signal. And so it's all about learning, like simple tools to be able to shift into that calmer state first. Got it. Okay. Yeah, I think for me, I really noticed myself in this place. When I became so cynical, I remember hearing myself talking to a colleague and being like, I mean, I don't even make that much of a difference, like the horse is hawks needed to be injected, and what am I really doing with my life and then thinking, at some point driving being like, I was desperate to inject. Like, you know, I just remember, like, this wasn't me. So can you give us a quick example of something that would be a super short, easy way to reduce anxiety? Yeah, absolutely. I think, since there isn't video, a one really easy one is really any moments of mindfulness. So something as simple as rubbing your two finger tips together, but really paying attention to how the ridges on your fingertips feel. Even doing that for 10 seconds is actually a really powerful way to shift you into a more positive, calmer state. And if you want to go into a little bit of like, exactly what's going on in your brain. So when you're having like those negative thoughts, or maybe that like negative internal dialogue, that is coming from a part of your brain called the default mode network. And when you do something as simple as rubbing your two fingertips together, then that goes over to task positive network, a different part of your brain, and that's more associated with being more focused and positive. And those two areas are like a seesaw. So if one is more Active, that means the other one is less active. And you can almost think of those like little moments as little like reps for your brain of strengthening that more positive part of your brain. Because, yeah, I can relate to like just having that negative brain filter on, really. And I see that a lot in hospitals, right? It's just it's easy to get into that cycle of just pointing out all the negative things that are going wrong. Great. Yeah, I love that. I love that. Okay. So then second step we would move into is you say, establishing safety and respect? Yeah, yeah. So I really think one of the lowest hanging fruits for creating positive change is establishing a zero tolerance for bullies policy within Vet Med. And when I say that I am speaking about difficult clients, from peers. But I also mean and the way that we're treating ourselves and our patients, and the way that I envision that is following a few steps. And the first would be to pause the moment that we are seeing signs of a stress or trauma response, either in a person or an animal. And then next is to get curious about why from their perspective, something is feeling overwhelming, or threatening. And then to identify like what needs to happen to reestablish safety and to have mutual respect, in order to move forward. And if that's not possible, then that's where we need to really be establishing a boundary. And to give an idea, like, just with a pet, you know, I'm in small animals. So I think about nail trims, like, Dogs hate that. And, you know, if we were to follow these steps, as soon as one of those dogs is maybe starting to get into that, like, fly, you know, starting to need to be restrained. What if instead of like, you know, that meaning more people need to be restraining? What if we are just pausing, noticing that for them, it's feeling really scary, even if we don't think no terms should be a big deal. And then getting curious about why, you know, maybe it is an older pet, and just the way that their paw was held was really uncomfortable, and maybe they just needed it to be held a different way. You know, and once they're showing that they're comfortable, then maybe you can move forward with that. Or maybe they just are like, nope, nail trims, too scary, too many bad nail trims. And you know, then maybe you're creating that boundary. And instead of having a conversation with the owner, like, hey, maybe we can send home some Gabapentin and Trazadone. Or maybe we can talk to you about ways that you can be desensitizing them at home, taking that same approach by using it for for ourselves. Yeah. And others. I think that's great. Let's go through an example maybe of how we could do that with a difficult client interaction? Because I think yeah, those are great examples. And super relatable for veterinarians listening, I think maybe harder for them to transfer that onto themselves and like a difficult client interaction. Yeah, yeah, let's do that. Because you encountered them pretty much every day. So I think that yeah, so say, you have what I like to call a fractious client, they're starting to be argumentative. We're gonna pause, right? Because we're just recognizing that they are feeling threatened. Because that's that fight, right? They're going into fight mode. And so that's a time to instead of making that mean something about them, you know, judging them or judging yourself, like, are you doing something wrong? Instead getting curious, like, why from their perspective? Are they feeling threatened? No, and there are so many reasons that they could be. Sometimes it could be that there was something that has already happened in their day, where their stress level is already high, maybe they were already in that stressed out mode before they even walked into the hospital. Or maybe they're feeling really threatened because they're really worried about their pet, and they don't have the finances, and that's feeling threatening to them. So just pausing and then getting curious. And that can even look like you know, noticing that they're feeling frustrated and even helping them to feel seen, and to clarify that that's how they're feeling. You know, just a like, I can see like, this is frustrating for you like is that how can you tell me why you're feeling that way? Or, or it even it seems like you're frustrated. Is that right? And just by doing that, that gives them an opportunity to kind of like reflect and search of like, is that how I feel? And if it's not then You can get more information from them about what is happening. And kind of going through that. And then seeing, you know, maybe it was that they are worried about finances. And that's an opportunity to say like, Hey, you know, this is maybe ideally what we can do, but we're here to be working with you. So let's come up with a plan that feels good to all of us so that we can help, you know, fluffy, to get relief today. And that's a way that you're getting that mutual safety and respect to move forward. Or maybe that is a person who they're just not willing to hear anything that you're saying. And that's the time when I think we really need to be stopping, you know, putting up with disrespectful clients in Vet Med, and really sticking up for those boundaries and establishing that. I think that's one of the best ways to send a message to your staff. You know, if you're tolerating disrespectful clients, that's really just saying we value them more than you. And it's really putting them in this position where they're subjected to verbal abuse without a way of escaping that without fear of a negative consequence. And, of course, you know, that's creating such an unsafe workplace, why would anybody feel excited to go to work or feel valued if they have to be in that kind of environment? Yeah, for sure. 100% agree, I love that. We've started using the term flooded with my son, he doesn't love having his emotions named for him. And we've found that flooded is a little bit has no connotation like it's neither negative nor positive. Like, it seems like you're feeling flooded. So that's a new technique that I just wanted to share, because it's been working well, for that situation. But I've switched it over to other things as well. Yeah, I think that's a perfect word. It's like too many emotions. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Okay, so then step three, would be replenish energy. And I'm actually most curious about this one, because I think I probably fail in this department. And I want more info. Yeah. So I think really, with burnout at the root, you're having depleted energy and hope, right? And so if we want to be having sustainable thriving careers, and vet med, we need to have some energy left at the end of the day to still be a person outside of that med. And I think there are a lot of opportunities for improvement in this area in vet med. So with the webinar that I do, we kind of go through an entire, like soap format of workup as if you're having low energy, but that's awesome. Yeah, just using the way that we're used to thinking. But, you know, some things that I would recommend thinking about, I mean, number one is, if you are in that survival mode, that takes so much energy and so really making that like just, I would love to see that like become as routine as physical exams in vet med where we're all just using these anti anxiety tools throughout the day together to be releasing stress, so that we don't feel like a balloon that's ready to pop. But we also really need to be thinking about, you know, our bodies do you have basic necessities that they really need to function and investment, we'll kind of treat those like a luxury instead of the necessity that they are. And what I mean by that is breast water, real food, sunlight and fresh air and movement. You know, those really are important for our bodies to function optimally. And so really challenging the veterinary profession to be getting curious about how we can be prioritizing these in a day to day life and even within the workplace. And so, you know, with rest in the perfectionism and all of us just liking to go go go I think that is an opportunity to be really thinking even throughout the day, are there little moments when we can be giving our brains a break even right we can have so much like decision fatigue and if our we're not having lunch breaks or anything then that really is so draining by the end of the day. So even having like little moments to rest. Drinking I don't know about you like how do you feel about like hydrating regularly. literally the worst it's on my list to do for self care every time I make it The one thing I've gotten in the habit of doing is stacking water before coffee in the morning. But some days that's like literally my only water. And then I feel terrible at the end of the day and shocking why when I take a second to think about it, right? Yeah, I know. I like to say like, if you're feeling like a withered flower, you know, like, have you had some water? Because it really does have that thing. That is how I feel. Yeah, that's a fact of life. Yeah. So and I think then we need to be getting curious about like, how can we be making it convenient to be doing that are more appealing? And, you know, I think even with break rooms, or just the environment in Vet Med, even thinking, like, how can you create like a spa kind of vibe in a break room. And maybe that means like, having some pictures that have like, some strawberries and lemon, or like some cucumbers and mint, like, suddenly, that makes the water so much more exciting and appealing. And it feels like very luxurious, and it's so easy. So, you know, just thinking about, like, what are these really little things that we can be doing that can really help people to be not getting a call Raising brain? You need to be thinking fairly? Oh, gosh, that's a good graphic to keep. I like that. I like that. Okay. Anything else that you would say? I mean, another one I struggle with is, you know, quality sleep habits or getting to bed at a certain time. Anything else you hear about from people frequently as a as a big struggle here for replenishing energy? Yeah, sleep, I completely agree is a huge one, you know, especially when everybody's minds are racing. And that's where some of the anti anxiety tools that I share are also really helpful. But food, I think investment is something that nobody is really talking about a lot. And it's a huge opportunity to really be supporting our energy, because the food that we eat really is the fuel. And it's the building blocks that our body has for all of its processes. And, you know, when we look at Vet Med, it's either really common to just skip lunch, you know, I talk to a lot of people who also don't have breakfast either. So it's like not until the end of the day that they're eating. Or if you look at the food that often is provided even as a reward. Now in the mornings, we tend to see like bagels and doughnuts and lunch, we tend to see pizza. And one thing I encourage people to do is just paying attention to how the food that you're eating makes you feel, not just in the moment, but for the entire day. Because what ends up happening a lot of the times it's like we have those doughnuts, you know, because nobody's had breakfast and their doughnuts just look fun. You just want to eat a doughnut. But then your blood sugar is spiking and then immediately crashing. And so how often, you know by like, 10am? Are you hearing people saying like, I'm so hungry, or maybe they're turning to like more energy drinks or more sweets, and then they're not as productive? Because they're just like waiting for lunch? And their energy is tanking? And how could we be providing breakfast that are really giving you nice stable energy throughout the morning? In our same with those pizza lunches. I know everybody loves pizza. But then how often do you hear afterwards, people saying like, Oh my gosh, I'm so full, or I just want to take a nap. And there really are foods that are also going to feel, you know, make your taste buds really happy. They're going to be yummy, but it's also going to give you like really good stable energy and fuel for your brain throughout the day. So that I think is something where once you start paying attention to how the food is making you feel. That's a huge source for great energy. Yeah, I totally agree I had to start working with a registered dietitian because of my gut health. And a I just did not realize how much more often I should be eating. And be it was really helpful to hear like, they're even in those circumstances where that is what's present, like, as long as you can balance it a doughnut or pizza with, you know, another high quality protein and some greens or fruits like that can actually still work. I mean, it's not ideal every day, but there are ways to make it doable. And even if it's not like an ideal plate, there's just balanced to it that really can sustain energy wise and so for me, I agree that's been super helpful. I don't have that four o'clock crash anymore. I might still have raised in brain the water, but yeah, it's been really helpful. So that's great. I'm glad you brought that up. Yeah, and I think you're so right. Like, it's so important to not have that like all or Nothing mindset for labeling it. Yeah, that Yeah, it really all is about being empowered with knowledge about what works for your body and being able to know like, Okay, if I have like, this amount of a donor, that's gonna bring me joy, and I'm still going to have fine energy, and maybe I'm going to pair that with some protein and healthy fats. And I'm going to feel fine. So yeah, I think that that's important to know. Yeah. Got it. Okay. So number four, last step for beating burnout is fostering an environment to thrive. So say more about that? Yeah. So this is all about, like, how can we be, you know, making a workplace where the employees are so obsessed about it, that they're bragging to all their friends about it, right? Because we want retention rates to be high, we want productivity to be high. And so when your staff feels good and valued and grateful to be there, that success is inevitable. And so that starts with that foundation of making sure that you are creating an environment where the baseline stress level can be low. So of course, like vet med has their unexpected things are going to be encountering stressors, and that's just a normal part of life. But there are also ways you know, like establishing this zero tolerance for bullies policy, that we can be creating an environment where in general, it is a we feel safe and supported. And then how can you be creating an environment where you are able to be having those basic necessities throughout the day? And even thinking about I don't know about you? Do you like walking like going for walks? Or? Yeah. Imagine if we could be creating a new norm about med wear, even just a short walk break is becoming the norm. You know, I think if smoke breaks were a thing, then a walk through. Yeah, I actually talked to equine vet at a really busy practice. And she does her one on ones a lot of the times and a walk on their property because they have a big facility. I know like what a great idea. A I think it decreases the anxiety of a one on one discussion, right for everyone. But then also you're outside getting a little bit of movement in and I thought that was such a great idea. And easier, maybe for us equine vets are outside a lot. But yeah, so important. Yeah, yeah, I think that I mean, the benefits of walking are endless. And it is just a nice way to even problem solve, you know, if we have those tough cases, or like what is going on, can be so helpful. Just decreasing stress, getting that fresh air that is so valuable, in a dive into so many creative ways to buy your prioritizing those basic necessities in the burnout webinar. But but then even diving deeper, like how can you really make your employees really make it convenient for them to thrive? That's where it really comes down to, you know, we know you and I have talked about boundaries are so important in order to be protecting your energy, and how can employers even be supporting their staff in having those conversations? Because boundaries, it's intimidating, talking about and establishing boundaries? I think so many people aren't even aware of what boundaries they may need. And so if you know, you are initiating conversations to help, you know, identify, like, what are the parts of this job that are really boosting your energy? And what are the parts that are draining it and allowing that to facilitate a discussion of like, really getting curious in those aspects that are draining the energy? Why is that, you know, is that a mindset shift that needs to happen is that additional training or mentorship is that a change in the schedule? That really just allows for a very healthy relationship on both ends because the employer is not having to guess what their employee needs. And the employees having support in even navigating like boundaries. Do I need to feel good at the end of the day? Yeah. And having the space to feel like they have a little autonomy and making some of these decisions for themselves and being heard like same as a client, right and employee needs to feel validated and heard if they're struggling in a certain way? It does. I think a lot need to come from the top down. I mean, the work that I do with a P practice culture committee, we talk about a lot of stuff for employees, but ultimately, leadership in the practice is responsible for kind of setting the stage for like your rephrase of a thriving environment. And so it can be hard. I think sometimes for associates or technicians or other staff members to feel like they can make a difference. But I think even suggesting the idea of bringing up a team meeting or talking about maybe some areas where you're feeling resentful or struggling, that can be one way to start a conversation if you're not the leader, I think, yeah, absolutely. And my hope is with these talks, that can also help people to start thinking about some of that or facilitating some of those conversations. And one thing, I like how your, from your perspective are saying, it really does need to come from the top, you know, down. But I also want to emphasize that these all apply to the leaders at the top, too, because I so often see owners and mentors who are so devoted to their staff or their mentees, and they really want to provide a really positive experience for them. But it ends up being the self sacrifice where they, you know, maybe they're telling like their mentee to go have lunch. But in order to do that, like if a mentor is working through lunch and taking on like, double the appointments, and not only is that making it hard, like if, if they're stuck in survival mode, and they're feeling drained, it's going to make it really hard to be having those kinds of conversations about what boundaries they need, because that that may feel threatening and overwhelming for them. But also just, you know, thinking about the unspoken message that that is sending. It really creates a lot of confusion where that mentee is like, Is this wrong to be not working? Yeah, I think that we're really need to be leading by example, in the actions and not just, you know what you're saying? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, definitely a double edged sword. And I think it makes it really hard for people to feel comfortable advocating for themselves if they don't see their boss doing it. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, that was awesome. Thank you so much for sharing all the information. I know, there's a ton more to dive in with you. And people can do that really, for free. Because, yeah, you have a lot of programs that are free. We'll get to that in a second. But first, we decided that we wanted, because we both feel like boundaries are so important. We want to do a little challenge for listeners. Yeah, yes. Okay. So we are hoping that in the next week, you all can find a boundary, if you know it already, that needs to be reinforced and hold it with conviction. And if you feel like you have an area where you're really struggling or feeling a ton of resentment with maybe take some time to develop a boundary around that area. And so you may not find this every day, but we figure in the next seven days, there will be something so we want to challenge you to do that. Yeah, definitely. Because I think with boundaries, I think one important thing to emphasize is that a lot of the times we feel guilty, sticking up for boundaries. And I think her name is Nedra twap. Glover Yeah, she's great work on boundaries. She says there are two reasons to be feeling guilty. One is that you actually did something wrong. The other is just that you think that you're doing something wrong. And that's really something we need to be calling out is that establishing boundaries is not selfish. And it's not that you're doing something wrong, it actually is key to healthy relationships and to supporting your energy so that you can be showing up as your best self and in the work that you do. So, just want to have that little mindset shift as you think about setting a boundary. Absolutely perfect. Okay. So I will definitely link to the beat the Burnout series, which kind of covers all four of these things that we've talked about what are other ways that people can connect with you or work with you. So, I am LifeBoost for the Millea on Instagram, I also have a podcast. I have a website, www dot LifeBoost dot today that has information on my free resources and my programs. I have one on one group coaching workplace wellbeing consulting, but I would say the best bet is just send me a message because I love to connect with others just to hear your story and then I can always help to point you and whatever resource best episode or you know, whatever is the best thing to help you make the next smallest step towards feeling your best. Awesome. That's amazing. Thank you for everything that you're doing. And thank you for your time today. Yeah, thanks so much, Stacey. It's great chatting. Thank you so much for tuning in to the whole veterinarian podcast. I so appreciate the time that you spend with me to connect, please find me on Instagram at the whole veterinarian, or check out the website at thewholeveterinarian.com and you can sign up for our monthly newsletter as well. Thanks again and I'll talk to you soon