Relief Veterinary Work and Serial Entrepreneurship with Drs. Cindy Trice and Julie Liu

Are you questioning whether relief veterinary work might be in your future? Dr. Cindy Trice and Dr. Julie Liu join me today to discuss all of the ways that relief work has benefitted their lives. They also share some insightful thoughts around some of the hurdles of getting started in the relief industry. Luckily, they are both putting out amazing resources to help our veterinary colleagues find their own path. Thank you so much to these inspiring women for sharing all of their knowledge with us today, and for all of the work they do in pushing veterinary medicine forward.
Here's some links to connect with them!
Dr. Trice's email (cindytricedvm@reliefrover.com) and LinkedIn
Dr. Lui's email (jliudvm@gmail.com) and LinkedIn
Here's some links to resources we mentioned in the episode!

• Relief Rover
• Fear Free for Relief Vets
• KickIt Pajamas
• Entrepreneurial You by Dorie Clark
• Flux Veterinary

Summary

Introduction to today’s episode.
0:08

Who’s here today?
3:18

Cindy’s background in relief.
4:34

Julie’s path to relief.
6:55

Creating a community of relief veterinarians to connect with each other.
11:51

Julie and Cindy’s fear-free certification course.
14:09

Don’t let perfection be the enemy of good -.
17:53

What are some of the hurdles Julie hears from people about finding work?
24:06

Cindy’s other work outside of relief.
27:19

What is one small thing that has brought you joy this week?
32:39

Transcript

Stacey Cordivano: 0:08

Hey there, it's Dr. Stacey Cordivano. As a veterinary professional, you can learn to be happier, healthier, wealthier and more grateful for the life that you've created. This podcast is here to help you find the resources to do just that. I will speak with outside of the box thinkers to hear new ideas on ways to improve our day to day lives. Together, we will create a community of veterinarians working towards positive change. Welcome to the whole veterinarian. In today's episode, I'm joined by two amazingly kind and inspirational women. Dr. Cindy Trice, is a multi state licensed relief veterinarian with over 18 years of experience working in who can remember how many unique general practice emergency mobile and shelter clinics, she finds great satisfaction helping other vets take hard earned breaks. In 2018, she founded relief rover, a community connecting relief vets to jobs each other resources and service providers who can help them grow their businesses because she sometimes likes to interact with those who understand more than just five commands. Cindy is also a consultant speaker, serial entrepreneur and author. Based on her experiences as a cancer patient. Dr. Trice founded a clothing company called KickIt Pajamas that design sleepwear and other accessories for women battling cancer. Cindy spends most of the year sweating it out in Bradenton, Florida with her husband and two long and low rescue dogs. In her spare time she loves to volunteer cook scheme travel plans and write rap lyrics for hamsters. I wish I'd known that before we interviewed her. Today we're also joined by Dr. Julie Liu. She's an elite fear free Certified Professional, cat friendly relief veterinarian based in Austin, Texas. Julie is also a speaker freelancer and is silver certified in low stress handling. After over a decade of work as an associate veterinarian, Dr. Liu found her calling and speaking to veterinary professionals and allowing them to connect more compassionately with their patients with a special focus on felines. She thrives on collaboration and meets challenges with innovation. If your team is struggling with stress, pets, stress people and injuries related to handling fearful patients. Julie is here to help through her company Flux Veterinary. In her relief work she feels good knowing that she's able to make a difference for clinics that are overbooked by helping with staff vacations or helping cover for solo practices where the owner never gets to take time off. Outside of work. Julie loves traveling, going to the movies trying new restaurants going to bakeries and cooking. Together, doctors trice and Lu have co created the fear free course for relief veterinarians, which you'll hear more about in the episode. I really learned a ton from their unique perspectives. And I'm so thankful for their time. I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did. So thank you again to Cindy and Julie for your time and expertise. Hi, ladies, thank you so much for being here today to sit down and chat with me. How are you?

Cindy Trice: 3:18

Doing great.

Julie Liu: 3:19

Yeah, excited to be here. L uGreat.

Stacey Cordivano: 3:22

Awesome. So I gave your brief bios in my introduction that I pre recorded but let's just do a little bit about each one of you. So everyone listening can get kind of context of who's sitting down to chat with me today.

Julie Liu: 3:37

Do you want to go first Cindy?

Cindy Trice: 3:39

Sure, I'll go first. So I am a veterinarian. I'm a 2004 UC Davis grad. And I've had a really marvelous experience in this profession so far. I have a ways to go still, but I consider myself a professional sampler. I love to work er GP shelter. Mobile I just recently did and that was super fun. So anyway, I love this profession. And I love what it's what it's done for me and my life and my career.

Stacey Cordivano: 4:15

Awesome. And there's a lot more to dig in with Dr. Trice. I know so we will get there. But um, Julie, how about you a little bit about yourself?

Julie Liu: 4:23

Yeah, I'm Julie Liu. I'm a vet based in Austin. I just got licensed in California last year. So I'm excited about potentially practicing there to visit my sister at the same time. I was an associate that for quite a while, but a year and a half ago became a relief that I started branching out into non clinical practice. I contribute to fear free and when other speakers I've kind of contributed to some curriculum writing and yeah, kind of similar to Cindy, I really enjoy exploring all the facets of being a vet that are much more beyond associate work, which I never would have guessed until I left associate practice

Stacey Cordivano: 5:01

nice. I think that's a great segue kind of into our general topic of today, which is keeping an open mind on how your veterinary career can look. But let's first focus on relief, because I know that's a big part of both of your careers currently. So what led you Cindy, let's start with you What led you into a relief career?

Cindy Trice: 5:25

it was actually a little bit on accident, I graduated and I went into an internship got sick had to drop out, ended up going into general practice for a year and a half. And it really bugged me I didn't finish that internship. So I went back, and I did it again, typically. And then after that was over, I kind of, I had this decision to make, I could either go back to the practice where I was before, or I could look around, and I just wanted to look around, I loved the practice where I was before, but I thought, you know, I know there's lots of different ways of doing things. So I kind of I started relief, as a way to explore to see what other options were out there. It wasn't so much. I thought of myself as a career relief that, but then I had this evolution, where I was like, oh, wait a second, this can be a career. And my husband is a freelance photographer, and we moved to Missoula for a for a job that he had for six months. And so I suddenly was with this veterinary community, I didn't know anybody. And so I sent out my cover letter and my little business cards. And I just established myself as a relief that in a brand new community, I had been a really fit in Florida, but I kind of knew people here. And that was when I realized, you know what, this can be a career. And it can actually support this kind of lifestyle of living part time in Florida, maybe part time in Missoula, maybe traveling to other states. So that was kind of how I how I got my start.

Stacey Cordivano: 6:55

That's definitely different. I think then probably some Julie, I'm curious to hear if yours is similar path or different of how you got to relief.

Julie Liu: 7:04

Um, you know, I guess for me, I also didn't know that people could be really fats, like, I don't remember ever hearing about really fat as a career in school. So I had a couple associate jobs. And similar to a lot of people, I was definitely experiencing quite a bit of burnout. And some of it was, you know, I think self imposed because I didn't wasn't really good at setting boundaries for work life balance, which I'm sure sounds familiar to people. Yeah, exactly, everyone. And I just remember, I had met a couple relief that's at my last practice. And I knew I kind of, you know, want to leave that particular position, but the thought of going to another associate position was not super appealing. So I'm like, Hey, do you want to go out for coffee and like, pick your brain about being a really fat, and they were so excited about their jobs, and just, you know, being able to operate independently work where you want when you want, set your rates? I mean, some of it's kind of terrifying, because I'm like, Oh, my God, how do you how do you operate your own business? But you know, just hearing their experiences really kind of emboldened me and gave me confidence that you know, I'm gonna try this. And then I actually had found Cindy sight relief rover when I was just Googling, I probably Googled how do you be a relief that I think found relief rover, but she has, she has like an FAQ on her site. Um, she's, the new website looks amazing, Cindy, but there's tons of resources on how to be a relief, fat and I think from there, you know, my, my thoughts, I just kind of felt unburdened, and I just kind of became, I started thinking about, Oh, what what else can Yvette do? So I think prior to that, I had reached out locally to a couple fear free connections I had. So veterinary behavior specialists, like a doctor and a technician. And I met them when I first moved to Austin, and I asked them, you know, how I can contribute to fear free. And so I kind of was doing that a little bit, but just becoming a relief that really made me feel empowered to feel like you know what, Yvette doesn't just have to work at a clinic, they can do all sorts of other things, and actually have a really good quality of life and then actually learn to set boundaries, that's really going to help, you know, with their own happiness. So yes, I've been really I just feel like there's no way I would be where I am today and, you know, have explored all these other options if I hadn't, you know, gotten into relief work.

Stacey Cordivano: 9:34

Yeah, that's really interesting. And certainly the idea of Veterinary Medicine not being one way is a theme on this podcast from the very beginning, right, opening people's eyes to the fact that it can be done differently. It can be done in a million different ways is certainly a theme here. So I think it's super interesting that having a mentor having someone that you had seen do it was really the catalyst to get you kind of over that hump. So hopefully, this episode might, might be that catalyst for someone listening. So let's circle back to relief rubber because I agree the website is beautiful and has a ton of information. How did that come to be Sunday?

Cindy Trice: 10:14

So I had the idea of sort of my second evolution as a relief that I started looking around. And, you know, once I'd realized, wow, this is a career and then I wanted to level up, like, how could I be a better relief that I started realizing that, you know, in clinical work, the clinic is my client, not the pet owner, not the pet, I take good care of them. That's certainly part of my duty as a vet, and part of what's enjoyable, obviously, about the job. But But my real duty is to support that practice. And once I had that shift in mindset, I started kind of looking around for resources of how how I could level up there was a woman, Dr. Karen Smith, who had written a book called Flex that how to be one how to hire one. And that was, that was my start into understanding how to do this. But besides her, and she was sort of kind of out of the game at this point. Nobody was talking about it, like Julie said, like you didn't, you didn't really know about it as an option other than regional staffing agencies. So I just, I've been doing it for a long time. And I've been doing it in lots of different ways. So I just think self anointed myself, the expert, and I started, you know, introducing myself to people and writing for different offering to write articles and getting myself on the speaking circuit, and which, by the way, was terrifying. That didn't come and still doesn't necessarily come naturally to me. But I just, I thought someone needs to help lead the way. And I don't, by no stretch of the imagination do I feel like I know everything. But I know that there are a pool of people that have this collective knowledge. And we're lucky we have she duly talked about it before about there's a there, there are multiple actually relief Facebook groups where this collective knowledge can come together, and we can help each other but I wanted to create something more formal. So relief rover was born to create a community of relief veterinarians, where we could get resources where we could use our numbers to so that I could negotiate discounts like for fear free, and we have other partners that we offer discounts for, so to kind of help us and to give advice on how to even set up being a relief that and then how do you get work? And then, you know, what are some best practices, and, and then I also wanted to help them connect opportunities. But I did not want to work like a staffing agency. So we don't, we're more I always tell people, we're more like a dating site. We are there to help introduce people to each other. And then also to help elevate and empower relief professionals to follow whatever path they want, whether that's to be a career relief fed, or whether they're using really forget to shop and kind of try before they buy, you know, for jobs.

Stacey Cordivano: 13:05

Yeah, that's great, that is so helpful to create that network for people, both person to person and educationally. And so it's free to join as a veterinarian or staff member looking for jobs, is that correct?

Cindy Trice: 13:19

Correct. It's free for veterinarians and technicians. And students can also come on and and join us and poke around if they're interested. We don't have a specific student membership category, but we're going going to be adding that. And then employers so hospitals or other types of employers, telehealth companies, we've had writing companies come on, you are looking for veterinary writers we've had people are looking for veterinary consultants come on. So anyone who's looking for an independent contractor vet, they can come on and join us as well. There is a subscription fee for people looking for the that's

Stacey Cordivano: 13:56

okay, great. So we'll definitely link to that in the show notes. And then I know you just mentioned that you have some discounts and things with other companies. And the two of you have created a course for fear free. So Julie, can you talk a little bit about that course?

Julie Liu: 14:13

Yeah, I think, you know, one challenge I had when I became a relief that is wanting to continue to practice fear free so I had become fear free certified, I think, you know, maybe five years ago or something like that. And you know, the to relief. That's who had mentored me. They weren't fear free certified. And so I just wasn't sure it's like, how do you how are you supposed to if you're mobile, how are you supposed to bring fear free to your clinics. So it was something that really kind of caused me some stress as a relief that because once you become fear, free certified, it's you know, it's something that you really bring to every single shift, you bring it to every single patient you handle. So, anyway, so I already had a relationship with fear free and had been contributing to them, and I thought it'd be really helpful To provide a resource for other relief vets who were thinking, oh, you know, does fear free really apply to me or people who are associates thinking, Oh, I might want to try relief work, but there's a skill going to be able Trent to transition to this other role. So since Cindy knows the most about being a relief that than anyone else, I know I reached out to her and just want to see if she wanted to cooperate on the course. So yeah, I got released, I think, a couple months ago, I believe. But it was a really great collaboration, I really loved working with Cindy, and it covers a lot of different things, you know, from things like communication with the clinic owner, which as Cindy mentioned, those are our clients is really fats to, you know, setting up expectations before the shift, having a fear free toolkit that you can bring that has, you know, easy cheese and pepperoni and to Rue and, you know, really kind of helps me that fear free experience, fear free leadership. And then this idea that Cindy has, which is great of relief that's being pollinators, where we're basically spreading, you know, these positive ideas from clinic to clinic. Because I know, when I was an associate, I just, I look back now. And I just feel like I was, you know, I had my regular clients, but it was sort of like this cave like existence, where you're kind of you don't really get external influences very much, you know, you go to these CEE events, and you, you know, talk with other, you know, the relief, that's who come to your clinic, but you're not really exposed to the number of ideas that you are, when you're going to all these different clinics and seeing us like, oh, wow, this clinic is doing this, and this is working really well. So similarly, when you go to clinics, you can also be a positive influence. And I've definitely found that, you know, as a as a fear free vet. So yeah, we're very proud of the course I feel like, you know, it's gonna be really helpful for, for anybody in relief, who is, you know, thinking about bringing that to their practice?

Stacey Cordivano: 16:55

That's awesome. So just like a spoiler, I'm assuming you guys have found a way to make it work for your free being a relief that is that correct?

Julie Liu: 17:03

Yeah, I think you I think you generally can, I mean, just like when you're an associate, sometimes you're going to encounter these roadblocks, where you're, where you're really not gonna get too far with a certain person or certain work scenario, but I just really haven't found that too often. And I think that I mean, I feel like with every shift, you're able to influence at least one person in a fear freeway, and that could be a fellow vet, it could be a technician, it could be a client. I mean, I can't think of a single shift where I haven't felt like oh, I actually did something, you know, positive and made them think about their pet or their patient. And and if you're a freeway, so it's not going to be 100%. Perfect, but you're not, you know, even if you work in a fear free practice, not every single patient or client interaction is going to be always 100%. Fear free. Yeah. So I feel like I think I think you can make it work.

Cindy Trice: 17:53

Great. Yeah. And my business adviser always says my favorite thing, he says, Don't let perfection be the enemy of good. And I think that that's such a great saying, because it is it is true, you can and will make an impact. And that impact will have a ripple effect. And you may not see the result right away, you may never know about the result. But when you lead by example, and you know, you lead with gentleness and kindness and an open mind, people will mostly react positively to that. And you'll you'll make an impression on people, even if even the quiet ones who don't say anything. And you don't know. Yeah, but they may notice how you're doing something different. And admire it and adopt it.

Stacey Cordivano: 18:37

Yeah, that's great. And yes, that phrase should probably be tattooed on every vet student. And I think that's a good segue, though, into autonomy and its relationship to burnout that you have as a relief that right so if for say, you walked into a practice that was just absolutely not allowing you to do your fear free techniques, you have the choice than to not go back there. Right. I mean, I have to imagine that's a big part of why relief works well for you guys. Is that a fair assumption?

Cindy Trice: 19:09

Absolutely. And I think there was a study done, I think Galaxy vets worked on it and really forever we helped galaxy that's what this study and culture is the number one reason why really festival go back to a practice. It wasn't pay. It wasn't hours worked. It wasn't the number of patients they saw it was culture. And so we have we we do have, right like right now, the demand far exceeds the supply. And so at this point in time, relief that's can choose where they want to go.

Julie Liu: 19:46

Yeah, and I think one tip I learned from other relief efforts is to not book more than a couple shifts at a new clinic. Because you know, they they might not be a good fit for you, but you may also not be a good fit for them, and so on. like being an associate where you're, you know, kind of signing on to a one year contract with a noncompete, you're really only in doing contract for one to two days. So I think that, you know, it's it's a really great way to kind of set these boundaries and advocate for yourself as well. Because I think, for me, just, you know, if you have a mismatch with the clinic, it definitely can lead to frustration and stress. And I'm sure, you know, clinics feel the same way if you're not really, you know, fitting in with their culture, like Cindy said. But yeah, I think that sense of autonomy is one of the best things about being a relief, that it's freedom.

Stacey Cordivano: 20:39

I know that you guys mentioned sort of the hurdle of startup as your own relief veterinarian, the business side of things. I have certainly heard that from people, what are some of the other hurdles that you hear from people thinking about starting a relief company that you might be able to, you know, dissuade them from being worried about?

Cindy Trice: 20:59

I feel like the big things that people get afraid of are, you know, business setup, what kind of business? Should I be, you know, should I be a sole proprietor? Or should I be an LLC, or an S corp? And there's not one right answer so so people just need to educate themselves and understand what those things mean, what that means in their state, what that means because of their income level, when they think of their entire family, the what tax bracket, they're in there, all these things to consider, which is why you can't advise one solution across the board. Another thing I think people get a little intimidated by are, like taxes, like figuring out the tech that suddenly you have to pay your own taxes, and you have to pay them quarterly. And like what you can write off what you can't, and that can be kind of intimidating, but it's not that hard. And I always advise people work with a CPA, get a CPA, I mean, I know sometimes people are just, you know, they they will use their tax software, and they could do it themselves. But when you're your own business, it, it is advisable to get a CPA, and they are they're professionals, you know, but they're well worth their costs. Just like we feel like we're worth our costs, like, Hey, don't go to Google and figure out how to take your ask me, I'm a professional, I went to school like we, we feel that our education is valuable will so is theirs. And I always tell people don't forget, that's a you can write that expense off consulting with a professional. So those things don't have to be intimidating, and you and you can get help. And once you get that stuff set up, it's pretty easy. It's pretty easy. From there. I think another thing people may get intimidated by is that feeling of always feeling a little unsettled as you go into new practice working with a new team. I've certainly heard people feeling a little bit nervous about like, am I being judged as to what kind of vet I am? Okay, let's just tell the truth. 100% you are, yes, the minute you walk in, you are being sized up, it's okay. It's not necessarily a bad thing. And I think the most important thing to remember is not to feel defensive about it, have some confidence in, in your ability to do your job. And don't feel like you need to know everything. I mean, I've been event since 2004. Still, for sure don't know everything. And I get myself into situations where I'm like, I feel like I should know what to do. I maybe knew what to do at one point in my life, but now forgotten. And and I'll ask for help. And just sort of leaving that ego at home, knowing that you can learn from whatever environment you're in. And you can learn something from every team member. And keeping that open mind and remembering that no matter what group of people you're with, or what type of clinic you're in, you guys are all working as a team for the same goal of supporting this business and helping those pets. And if you if you don't walk in with this, like worry, or defensiveness, that being judged, it's so much more enjoyable. So I just say you know what, go with the flow. Enjoy it,

Stacey Cordivano: 24:05

Great advice. Julie, are there any things you hear as far as hurdles that you might want to address for people?

Julie Liu: 24:12

Yeah, I think I've, you know, I think some people get concerned about okay, how do I find work? So, luckily, as Cindy mentioned, there's you know, there's a pretty big demand for beds right now. And so, really just accessing your local contacts, reaching out to clinics, you know, your VMA advertising on there. And this is, of course, all stuff that we cover in our course, which is you know, how to find work. And but yeah, I think that's something that a lot of people stress about. I also have heard people stress about, well, how do I take time for myself? Because, you know, once clinics find out that you're available, they're going to be wanting to book you for like the next six months and oh, what's your availability for this day? And so like, and for me, you know, I want to leave time in my life to do other things, so not invent things. And so just trying to set those boundaries for you know what I am not going to be working. I don't know, for me, I don't work five days a week and the clinic for me, like three days is what I try to, you know, plan for. And that kind of leaves, you know, some mental space and emotional space and physical space for me to pursue some of these other non clinical, you know, areas of work. But, yeah, I think just really rethinking your life and just realizing, you know, I have the freedom to have control over when I work, and I should take advantage of that. So there's that part of it, I think, to managing my personal finances, you know, you're not going to have that cushy CEE budget of a couple 1000 A year or whatever your contract allowed for as an associate along with this paid paid days off. So know a lot of relief that start panicking about oh, well, how do I get, you know, free CEE like, how do I manage my finances. And so it's really kind of a different shift to because I think a lot of relief vets are either you know, pro style, or salary or production. And, you know, for relief, that's, we typically we get paid per shift usually. So that's either hourly or by the day, and so just kind of rethinking your finances and thinking, you know, what this is like before taxes. So taxes are gonna take a huge chunk of my income. And it's definitely shocking when you when you have to pay that first tax bill, because as he was saying, but um, yeah, I think that those two things, and then the final thing I was gonna mention is just, you know, communicating with staff members, because you are just kind of constantly making a first impression, and trying to stay positive, but also realizing, yes, they're judging you. Because they don't know you. And for me, I'm definitely not above food bribes. So if I go to a new clinic, I bring a box of doughnuts, you know, as a peace offering. And so just like little things like that, I think, and then realizing, you know, what, like, this clinic may not be a good fit, and that's okay. Like, I don't have to feel bad as a person, they don't have to feel bad as a clinic. There's so many different types of vets out there. And it's okay, just just to acknowledge that it's not a good fit, and I'm going to move on to this other, you know, shift. So I think it's just a different way of thinking and I, you know, I'm pretty new, really fat. So I'm still kind of coming to terms with some of this stuff. Yeah.

Stacey Cordivano: 27:19

That's great advice. I hear a lot of boundaries setting there and sort of personal work, whether it's like personal mindset, or personal finances so probably benefit to all of us, but it's great advice for people considering really, for sure. Let's switch and talk a little bit about the million other things you guys have going on your life partly because probably that your relief, that's and have time for them. So Cindy, what else do you do besides relief rover and any clinical work that you're doing?

Cindy Trice: 27:50

Well, and one of the things I love about being a relief that like I think I said in the beginning, I consider myself a professional sampler. Relief practice allows me the ability to what I call diversify my practice portfolio within that med. So that might mean I'm doing er, GP shelter, whatever. I'm mixing it up to keep it interesting. But I might also like Julie, you know, speaking has become part of what I do writing has become part of what I do. Consulting has become part of what I do. And all while using my veterinary education. But I also have created space in my life, I was actually a cancer patient. So I ended up right after I graduated from Vet School, which is why I left my internship. As a result of that experience. I came up with a pajama that's designed for being in the hospital. So I started a company based on that. So we basically designed pajamas and other accessories and clothing designed for women either hospitalized or undergoing cancer treatment at home. And I made some space in my life for that. And I will tell you like having like opening another side of my brain and thinking about a whole other population of people. I mean, it there is a theme of always wanting to be helpful, like a lot of veterinarians are we're we're helpers. Right? And, you know, this is another way that I wanted to help a population of people that you know, I'm connected to. So I do that as well. And then you know, I try to make time for her fun and stuff like that.

Stacey Cordivano: 29:33

And that's called Kickit Pajamas, right?

Cindy Trice: 29:35

That's called kick in pajamas. Yeah.

Stacey Cordivano: 29:37

That's a very noble cause. I appreciate the work that you do there. Julie, how about you? How do you feel like your other aspects of your life have opened up after a little more space from being really fit?

Julie Liu: 29:49

You know, I consider my career kind of fluid. I was inspired by this book that I read. It's not buy or listen to audiobook, but she's not a vet. She's a I'm a speaker and author who writes for the Harvard Business Review and Forbes, her name is Dorie Clark, highly recommend her work. I think I've told Cindy about it. But I listened to this book called entrepreneurial you where she talks about this portfolio career idea where you diversify, you know your income streams, but you're also diversifying your interest. And to me, I just find that really inspiring because, you know, many vets kind of just have their, their job and they don't really think about these other things that they could do. So once I listened to that book, I really took it to heart and started, you know, exploring some of these other things that I mentioned, like speaking and in writing. I've actually, I love cats, I didn't realize that I was a cat person until I got my first cat. And I realized as I was going to more and more of these clinics, that a lot of people just aren't comfortable handling cats and are actually scared of cats. And if you really are able to connect with your feline patients in a compassionate way, you know, the pet owner can see it and they're, they're so open to all these suggestions that you can do that you're that you're offering. And so earlier this year, I collaborated with another Vet Dr. Sally Foote on cat friendly kind of feline handling workshop where we worked with vet techs and vet assistants, and I just loved working with them, because they're the ones who do the majority of handling. And I felt like just kind of being able to spread compassion with how they handle their patients is going to really help you know, 100 times, you know, beyond just like the, you know, five cats that we handle during the workshop. So I'd really like to get more into a feline focus just with a hands on workshops, and, you know, consulting for clinics and being cat friendly and fear free. Beyond that I have kind of done some volunteer work with the AFP. So I'm a volunteer with her cat friendly practice committee and an intern for their board of directors. So it's been really cool to see an organization kind of behind the scenes and you know, being able to innovate with the board of directors. And it's like, oh, how does policy get implemented to the final, you know, decisions for a huge organization like the AFP. So yeah, I just kind of feel like I really open to just trying different things. And I encourage anyone listening to just, you know, don't limit yourself, like, if there's something, you know, you think, Oh, that could be kind of cool, I would just reach out to the person or just think about doing it. Because even if you don't feel like you're qualified, like, the stakes are pretty low. I feel like the worst they can say is no, and I just feel like you're gonna find all sorts of interesting little career turns that you can take, just by, you know, trying trying new things.

Stacey Cordivano: 32:39

Yeah, that's great. You guys are great examples of keeping an open mind and all the different directions you can go. And I can certainly relate, I mean, this podcast is veterinary based, but it's certainly a very different project than clinical work. And it's probably the only reason I'm still doing clinical work, because I got to do something else creative with my brain. So 100% Agree. Okay, so I want to wrap up, I want to clarify a couple things. If you become a free member of relief rover, you can then get a discount on your fear free annual subscription. So that's a big important point for people. And we'll make sure to put all those links in there. Once you're a member of fear free, then you can take your course fear free for relief, that's which will also help people just understand how to set up their relief business, correct?

Cindy Trice: 33:33

Well, there's actually that's not true. There's not a lot about business setup. Specifically, it is much more about like how to be a fear free. Yeah, right like that. But there's a lot of there's a lot of resources on relief rover for how to set up your business and all those kinds of things.

Stacey Cordivano: 33:52

Okay, perfect. All right. So we'll make sure all those links go in the show notes. And then if people have questions for you guys directly, what's the easiest way to reach you?

Cindy Trice: 34:02

I can be reached Cindy trice, DVM at relief rover.com. I'm happy to be a sounding board a resource for anyone. So don't hesitate to reach out

Stacey Cordivano: 34:14

awesome. And really, what's the best way to connect with you? Some people are like more active on social media or email or?

Julie Liu: 34:20

Yeah, I have. I'm active on LinkedIn. So I use that. So feel free to reach out to me with with that I have a personal website, it's flux that.com. And then my email is J. Liu dvm@gmail.com. And yeah, I definitely would be happy to answer any questions about you know, if you're free or how you become a relief, that

Stacey Cordivano: 34:40

perfect okay, and then I asked all my guests, I don't know if I prepped you guys for this one or not. But what is one small thing that has brought you joy this past week?

Cindy Trice: 34:49

I know, I just got back from a vacation and I have not read a novel and so long I've been reading business books and you know, all like personal growth. So stuff, which is good. I finally read a novel and it's the best novel, it was called Clara in the sun by Kazuo Ishiguro highly recommend it. It's such a great read. And that brought me so much joy.

Stacey Cordivano: 35:14

Great. I love it. I also tend to only read personal growth books. So now I have to ask you, what's your most recent best personal growth book?

Cindy Trice: 35:22

I guess most recently, I've been reading Pitch Anything for business purposes.

Stacey Cordivano: 35:31

Okay, Julie, how about you? What's a small moment of joy?

Julie Liu: 35:34

I think for me, it's going back to see movies in the theater. I've been pretty COVID conscious, but I love movies. And yeah, I've been seeing a movie a week for the past few weeks. And it's definitely a different experience. But I think just recapturing the joy of seeing a film on the big screen, and feeling like your life has at least is slowly you know, regaining some sense of normalcy, you know, in the pandemic. I've just loved it. And I want to keep seeing weekly movies in the theater if possible.

Stacey Cordivano: 36:06

That's a great goal. I love that goal. Perfect. Well, thank you guys so much for sitting down with me today. I think we covered a lot in a short time, but I think will probably be super helpful for some listener. So thank you.

Cindy Trice: 36:17

Thanks for having us.

Stacey Cordivano: 36:19

Thanks again for listening. I so very much appreciate the time you spend with me. For more information or to sign up for our monthly newsletter, please check out the website at the whole veterinarian.com You can also connect with me on Instagram at the whole veterinarian. If you love this episode, please do me a favor and share it with a friend or if you feel so inclined, leave a review on Apple podcasts or Spotify. Thanks so much and I will talk to you again soon.