Empowering Veterinarians: The Impact of Tailored Mentorship featuring Dr. Addie Reinhart

How has mentorship affected you in your veterinary career? There is no doubt we all have stories, both positive and negative, of relationships that have shaped our world in veterinary medicine. Dr. Addie Reinhart joins me to talk all things mentorship and her goal of helping everyone to do it better. Supporting one another in this crazy veterinary journey will ultimately elevate the entire profession.

More about Addie...
Dr. Addie Reinhard is a veterinary well-being researcher. Her research focuses on developing innovative wellbeing interventions to support mental health and wellbeing within the veterinary profession. She is on the research team for the next phase of the Merck Animal Health Veterinary Well-being Study and is currently collaborating with Merck Animal Health to grow and expand MentorVet. She completed a master’s degree in Community and Leadership Development and a Graduate Certificate in College Teaching and Learning from the University of Kentucky in Spring 2021
and has a certificate in Veterinary Human Support from the University of Tennessee. Her work incorporates suicide prevention in the veterinary profession, and she is a certified QPR instructor and SafeTALK trainer.
-Find her on LinkedIn!

Find Out What's Happening at MentorVet...
-MentorVet Website featuring the Lead, Leap, Tech, and Lift programs
-A great article on Well Being and Self Care from the MentorVet blog
-National Mentoship Program through the AVMA MentorVet Connect
-Facebook
-Instagram
-LinkedIn

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Transcript

Stacey Cordivano: 0:08

Are you looking for positive change within veterinary medicine? If you want a community that's focused on progress rather than perfection, you're in the right place. Hey there, I'm Dr Stacey Cordivano and I want veterinarians to learn to be happier, healthier, wealthier and more grateful for the lives that we've created. Welcome to the Whole Veterinarian Podcast. I am so excited to welcome back Dr Addie Reinhart to the podcast today. She was an early guest in season one and today we get to cover all of the ways that she has grown mentor vet and her thoughts on how the mentorship landscape in veterinary medicine is changing. And it's a great conversation and I'm always so happy to spend some time with her.

Stacey Cordivano: 1:01

But if you don't know her, she is a veterinary well-being researcher and she focuses on developing and evaluating innovative interventions to support mental health and well-being within the veterinary profession. She founded MentorVet, which is a company that creates evidence-based programming to empower individuals, to create a healthier profession for individuals and communities. I will link all the things that MentorVet is doing in the show notes. We talk all about it in this episode, but make sure to check them out. If you don't know about them, recommend them to a friend, support them for any associates you have. I can't speak highly enough about the program and what it's doing for the individuals that go through it, so I hope you enjoy the episode and let us know what you think.

Platinum Performance: 1:46

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Stacey Cordivano: 2:04

Thank you for being here. How are you?

Addie Reinhard: 2:06

having me. I'm doing pretty well over here. A little busy over here at .

Stacey Cordivano: 2:12

Yes, we will dive into that. There's lots of talk about mentorship throughout the veterinary community. There's still lots of confusion, I think, about how to do it well. So anything we can do to highlight how to do it well will be helpful, I think, for listeners. So maybe let's start off before we dig into you know what MentorVet does exactly. Let's start off about what kind of you think the most important aspects of mentorship are for veterinarians are for veterinarians.

Addie Reinhard: 2:50

I think mentorship, like in its historical sense and definition, has been mostly a one on one relationship with kind of a more seasoned colleague, and I think this has been a really impactful form of mentorship that can result in more growth of the mentee.

Addie Reinhard: 3:04

It can help the mentor as well in that relationship and I know I get as much from my mentees as they get from me. But I think you know also, when we're looking at this changing industry, when we look at kind of the importance of mentorship, it's even a business case for mentorship right and I think recruiting and retaining individuals within our practices, within our profession. I think if we're specifically looking at the equine industry, it gets even more important for retention and providing good quality mentorship. That structure just becomes so important. And I think the last piece of this, um, most of the research that we've done at MentorVet is around like mental health and wellbeing, and and good mentorship has the potential to really improve overall mental health and wellbeing when it's done right. Um, so I think there's a lot of cases, uh, for just providing really quality mentorship with really quality mentorship within our industry.

Stacey Cordivano: 4:09

Is there like an easy way to outline what that looks like good mentorship?

Addie Reinhard: 4:14

Yeah, yeah, I mean that's a tough one, right? Because how do you define mentorship? I'm going to ask a question to the host. Does this ever happen? How do you define mentorship? I'm going to ask a question to the host. Does this ever happen? How do?

Stacey Cordivano: 4:27

I define mentorship as providing support to someone who is looking for growth, but that support has to be provided in an individualized way that's going to actually help that person. Like that mentee has to know what they are in need of in order to get good support.

Addie Reinhard: 4:48

I think yeah, so I think good development starts with like individualized support, and I think that you kind of hit on a lot of that. Like so much of mentorship has to be tailored to the specific individual and really focused on what they need, and some of that can be done through providing resources internally. Sometimes it's providing resources externally, but when we look at kind of it's really interesting. There are so many different models for mentorship and a lot of what people think of when they think about mentorship is this traditional model again of somebody more experienced providing support to somebody less experienced. Typically that's somebody in your practice that you're working with. Typically it is for new hires or new to their career.

Addie Reinhard: 5:40

So early career veterinarians is often the focus, and I think the more and more that I have done work in the space, the more we're seeing how mentorship is important for everyone across all stages of their career, and it can come from more than just traditional means. So it can also come from peers. It can also come from team members I learned a ton from veterinary technicians and CSRs and practice managers. It can come from the support network that you create around you that isn't necessarily within your practice. So maybe external mentors, maybe your support network of friends, family, loved ones, maybe mental health professionals, and so when I think about how I define mentorship and this is something that I've kind of come to over the past three years is that it is to me a network of mutually beneficial relationships in which we are investing our knowledge, our time, our energy to really support these individuals, both personally and professionally, throughout our entire career. And so I think, when I look at that definition, mentorship can be structured in so many different ways. But I think you hit it that like it's got to be unique to the person, to their life stage, to their role that they're in. And yeah, we can talk a little bit more about like how to parse some of that out, but yeah, individualized is important.

Stacey Cordivano: 7:08

And how do you see mentorship like shifting in the past few years, Like we have been talking about it more certainly?

Addie Reinhard: 7:16

partly because of.

Stacey Cordivano: 7:17

MentorVet, but you know other groups as well. How have things shifted in how it's being talked about or how it's being seen?

Addie Reinhard: 7:25

things shifted in how it's being talked about or how it's being seen. Yeah, I think the biggest thing that I've noticed in the industry over the past probably five years or so is more structured programs. Especially, a lot of our corporate groups are starting to offer more structured mentorship programs. I know, when I graduated back in 2015,. When I asked you know what am I supposed to be looking for? Oh, find a good mentor. I'm like 2015,.

Addie Reinhard: 7:44

When I asked you know what am I supposed to be looking for? Oh, find a good mentor. I'm like okay, so I'm going out in job interviews. I'm like, hey, are you a good mentor? You know, I didn't know what to ask. I didn't know what I was looking for. I didn't know what mentorship I mean. I know that it was somebody that was going to support me in my career, but I didn't really know what exactly that meant or how to find one.

Addie Reinhard: 8:10

And I think that now, with the market for and just the challenge in hiring new associates, it's shifted so much to be.

Addie Reinhard: 8:17

Now the new grads can ask for more of what they want and can get a little bit more granular on that what it is that they need, and so a lot of times we're seeing more structured support and so that we can provide better development plans for individuals as they're transitioning into the career, and so I'm seeing a lot more mentorship programs popping up everywhere and corporate practices and privately owned practices, and it's becoming more of the expectation than the exception, and I think that's a good thing that we are focusing so much on it, and I think the more that we invest in our people, the better outcomes that we're going to have long term, and so I am excited to see this shift.

Addie Reinhard: 9:05

I would say another shift that I've seen and I think that probably a lot of the work that we've been doing at MentorVet has kind of led some of this shift is the focus now on professional skills, training and mental health, and so I think historically mentorship has been more focused on clinical medicine and how to develop a doctor clinically, and within the past three to five years now we're seeing there's this holistic approach to mentorship and training that is incorporating the entire individual and their life experience and their professional skills and their communication skills and their leadership skills and really encompassing the entire professional, not just this one aspect of being a veterinarian, which is clinical medicine. And so that's really exciting to me as well, because I think when we prepare people both for the medicine part as well as some of the professional challenges that we might experience, that results in an overall better outcome for everyone involved.

Stacey Cordivano: 10:05

Yeah, it's funny to hear you say it like that, because and maybe it's because I'm deep into this idea with you and mentor vet but, I don't even really think of mentorship as as clinical in my like, have I done any clinical mentorship? I mean, I guess maybe a little bit, but it's so much all the other stuff that I think is so important. It was just kind of funny to hear you say it like that.

Addie Reinhard: 10:29

Well, it's funny because when I talk to vet students, like you know, I'll go to like VBMA even their roundtable discussions at their kind of national conference, and I've done it two years in a row now and each year I hear the same. When I asked them what mentorship is, they're like oh it's somebody in my practice and more experienced vet and it's to help me with my clinical medicine. So in their minds like it's still very much a clinical focus. But yeah, I think you've been facilitating with MentorVet a lot long enough to see like how much more there is. I'm really interested to see, if I keep doing these VVMA roundtable discussions, how many years it's going to take for us to like shift entire perceptions of the industry to embrace this kind of evolving definition of mentorship.

Stacey Cordivano: 11:17

So yeah, and when you were saying that, I was even thinking I still see, you know, people in different Facebook groups post things about contracts and mention mentorship in a super vague way, and luckily, you know, there's a couple people vocal to chime in about asking for specific mentorship or saying like, like, have it in your contract that you're in the mentor vet program or something. But yeah, I'm not sure that they're even like, compared to you graduating, that they're necessarily graduating today, thinking I for sure know how to ask for mentorship in my first job. So yeah, that will be interesting.

Addie Reinhard: 11:48

I think that's an area for growth for vet schools too, I think is helping vet students like recognize what it is that they need to be asking for. And I don't know again, it's so individualized, Like I left vet school like not super confident in surgery and so I knew that that was something that I needed a lot of support in, and I was making sure that I was going to find somebody who was both okay with me shadowing some surgeries and then also scrubbing in with me and then, you know, holding my hand while I learned new things, and so I think being able to help our kind of mentees be more aware of some of their needs I think is important.

Stacey Cordivano: 12:36

That's a good topic actually. What advice do you have for someone in management or in the traditional mentor role if they see someone that maybe is lacking in skills, whether that's clinical or, you know, communication or anything, how do you suggest they kind of broach that as a topic to explore together?

Addie Reinhard: 12:56

Yeah, that's a tough one because I think so much of mentorship should be mentee directed right.

Addie Reinhard: 13:03

And I think if we try to impose our own development plans on other people, it can sometimes be met with resistance or, yeah, it can get a little defensive as well. And so I think approaching it in a curious way of like helping them figure out maybe some of the things that they would like to work on and helping them, you know, obviously we can provide feedback and if we do it in the right way, it can be received well. There's a few different feedback models that we can use, but in general, just asking good, open-ended questions like where would you like to grow, or what are you really interested in right now in this practice, and how can we help foster that growth and development. I think, in cases where you notice a particular deficit, making sure that we're also focusing on the strengths and playing to those strengths becomes very important so that our mentees feel more confident and empowered. Confident and empowered and if we focus on their strengths and then, along the way, hopefully there's some self-awareness around some of the deficits.

Addie Reinhard: 14:15

And I mean honestly, if you had looked at me as a new and recent grad, like and my mentor was like hey, addie, like we've noticed, like you get really stressed out when you're doing dentals, I'm like, yeah, no crap, I do. And if they suggested like, hey, we want to provide some funding for you to get better at this and we want to invest in your growth and so that maybe you aren't so stressed out with these things, I would say, hey, great, sign me up, what are we going to do? And hey, I found these dental CE wet labs that we want to send you to and pay for that for you. So I think it really just depends on the individual of how you deliver that feedback. But you know, if a mentee clearly is stressed about something and you can tell when you bring it up to them and maybe have some possible solutions, I think sometimes that can go over well.

Stacey Cordivano: 15:10

Yeah, it's also probably depends on, like, the relationship that you've built prior to that right. Correct Whether the situation feels psychologically safe for everybody to kind of air everything out there.

Addie Reinhard: 15:20

But yeah, yeah, and just maintaining that candid, open communication from the get go. If you are constantly providing positive feedback and good feedback and then occasionally you're providing some feedback for improvement, that's going to be taken a lot better than if you never provide any feedback and then all of a sudden you're like, hey, you're horrible at surgery and we really need to get better. Or hey, you're really inefficient at your appointments and you need to get faster. Like that you know that's going to be taken and met with some resistance and defensiveness. So just frequent, frequent feedback. We're fragile, fragile creatures.

Stacey Cordivano: 15:55

Yeah, no, that's good. I feel like we should say that again. So you can't just go in after having given no feedback, with negative feedback Like there's no way that's going to be met well. So, the goal has to be often giving positive feedback, and then, when you need to give constructive feedback, there's a lot better chance it's going to be taken well, Words of affirmation.

Addie Reinhard: 16:19

It's like one of the five love languages. Yeah, yeah, we need. We need more words of affirmation. You know little notes like hey, dr Addie, like great job today on that surgery. You like your, your surgery times are improving a lot.

Stacey Cordivano: 16:35

I don't need that I don't need that, but I need that a lot. There you go, but you know it's funny. We, you know, as the practice culture subcommittee for the AAP's sustainability effort, we made a feedback survey. That was, you know, for anyone really. But for managers to just hand, like they don't have to change it at all it has AAP branding on it, but like they can just hand it, and it was literally based on the five love languages. It's like it was an adaptive, jackie Boggs adapted it. And it's like Do you like to get a coffee as a like? That's like, if I did a good job, you go buy me a coffee. I'll be real happy about that. I don't need a note, but yeah, it's so interesting, funny, yeah, just spend quality time with me in surgery.

Addie Reinhard: 17:20

I need you to just be here next to me Rub my shoulder every once in a while.

Stacey Cordivano: 17:27

Okay, we're getting a little too deep.

Addie Reinhard: 17:30

Little, little, little distracted there.

Stacey Cordivano: 17:33

Okay, let's dive into kind of where MentorVet has been, some of the research that has come out about how effective it has been and where it has literally like rocketed off to now currently.

Addie Reinhard: 17:50

It has been a whirlwind. So you know, I was just kind of reflecting on a year. A little over a year ago we had one program. So when I started MentorVet back in 2021, it had been a research project for a couple of years when I was in my master's program at University of Kentucky and we had like seven people go through the pilot and we had like a control group of 31 people and just from the pilot even we found improvements in well-being and reductions in burnout and from there, merck Animal Health. I was connected with the leaders there and they wanted to help out and help us grow. And so in the spring of 21, I founded MentorVet, the entity. Merck became the founding sponsor and, yeah, we've just been skyrocketing from there.

Addie Reinhard: 18:41

So you know I look at the first year we had close to 100 people go through MentorVet Leap.

Addie Reinhard: 18:49

So that's the original program, our flagship program for early career vets in the first five years of practice. It combines professional skills training and the things that are stressful for young vets so conflict management, leadership, stress management, ethical issues, spectrum of care. We combine that with peer support and so connecting young vets with each other so they can talk about some of these challenges and stressors and then give them access to mental health and financial coaching and then structured paired mentorship. So you know, when we look at that flagship program year one so 2021, we had about 100 people. Year two, so that was 2022 2022 we had over like 300, and then last year we had, yeah, 300 plus again. So that program was just like skyrocketing with enrollment and we've just continued with our research and continue to see significant improvements and pretty much any mental health measure that we look at, which is which is great because it's only six months and it's like three to four hours a month of your time and like if something so small can make such big impacts like this is so cool.

Stacey Cordivano: 20:00

I mean, the knowledge that's packed in there is so amazing.

Addie Reinhard: 20:04

Yeah, yeah, it's really well thought out and it's really structured for the busy professional, so that you get these little bite-sized chunks of how does this matter to me right now and how can I apply this to my life as a veterinarian um, kind of like hacks, um for a lot of the stuff right. And I think, um, when we saw how impactful that program was for young vets, I I started thinking in 2022, like okay, what's next for a mentor vet? Like we could just keep doing this and do a really good job at it and help a lot of people. And also the way that we develop that program, the way that we develop that curriculum. It could be applied to any area of the profession and any life stage too, so it could be for early career or students or mid-career. And so there was this kind of shift in the vision, which was initially like create a national mentorship program to now create evidence-based structures to support the entire veterinary team at any stage of their career, particularly to give tools and support and community education, with the ultimate goal of helping people so they can help themselves and help others and ultimately create a healthier profession in the process. And so kind of the first foray into that realm, into expanding our programming out to different populations, was the creation of VentureVet Tech. So we piloted a technician program in early last year, again found similar results, improvements in pretty much any mental health measure that we looked at. So that program is growing and we now have usually between 50 and 100 going through that cohort and still growing in enrollments.

Addie Reinhard: 21:53

We partner with the AVMA now so we provide free paired mentorship to any AVMA member who's graduated within the last 10 years and so this is a member benefit of being an AVMA member and people can go on the platform, search for a mentor and get connected. So we really wanted a free resource that if people couldn't afford to go through the MentorBet LEAP program, or they couldn't get their employer to pay for it or they couldn't get a scholarship I will say, like over 95% of the people who go through our program receive a scholarship to participate. But if you can't, then there's at least a free resource available through the AVMA for paired mentorship. So that's MentorBet Connect free resource available through the AVMA for paired mentorship. So that's MentorVet Connect.

Addie Reinhard: 22:32

That launched last summer and then this year we launched two new programs. I'm like who made this decision? Oh wait, it was me, it was 2023, addie, so yeah, so we're now at the start of the year. We launched a mentor certificate program, mentorvet Lift. It's a year-long program to give veterinary mentors the skills and tools that they need to really be better mentors, better supporters. And then, more specifically, how to create really good structured programming. So how to do a needs assessment and learn what individuals need and how to really individualize and tailor your mentorship programming to meet those needs, and then how to evaluate that programming and then how to support yourself as a mentor. So those are kind of the three things that we really focus on in the program is supporting yourself, supporting others and creating effective programming that is based in evidence, and we just launched that. We have about 20 people going through that pilot this year. It's such a cool program. It's pretty much all the knowledge that I've learned along the way way developing programming at MentorVet, distilled into a year long course that really will hopefully help ripple out some of these structures, especially at the local level and the practice level.

Addie Reinhard: 23:43

And the final program that we just launched, like as of last week, was MentorVet Lead. So this is a program for mid career veterinarians, mentorship and professional developments Very similar in structure as the early career program, but just more advanced knowledge and leadership and how to lead a team and some of the challenges and stressors that come along with being a mid-career vet, like sometimes getting stuck in a rut and feeling that and how to get out of it and how to deal with burnout both in yourself and on your team. So we are launching that pilot with ACVIM with new diplomates this year and so we've got 15 new diplomates going through that program this spring. So yeah, we're staying busy at MentorVet and it's really cool to see I'm excited to see the kind of future growth of where we're going, because you know we hope in the next three to five years to have programming for any veterinary team member that wants support and needs support. And yeah, it's been quite the journey for sure.

Stacey Cordivano: 24:45

I stay busy. It's so impressive to see everything you've done and sometimes I'm just like she never sleeps.

Addie Reinhard: 24:53

She is amazing. I actually get eight hours of sleep every night. That's like my one self-care thing that I'm really I've been good at forever, like even through vet school. I'm like if I get less than seven hours of sleep, I'm just like you don't want to be around, daddy.

Addie Reinhard: 25:08

Yeah, so seven to nine hours consistently. I mean occasionally, like if there's something big going on, I might dip to like five or six for a day or two, but never more than a day or two. I prioritize sleep. I think this is the secret. I think this is my secret. So here's the hack.

Stacey Cordivano: 25:24

Just get a lot of sleep, yeah, and brain capacity to get all these things accomplished. And well, like you said, your team is growing too. So now you're learning to delegate and be a leader. What has been a learning?

Addie Reinhard: 25:40

experience for you in that oh man, so many, I would say. Delegation has always been hard for me, and so much of this is related to perfectionism and the fear of letting go of control.

Addie Reinhard: 25:52

And I think that weird.

Addie Reinhard: 26:02

All right, I know.

Addie Reinhard: 26:02

So I have learned a lot in the last couple years and I think the way that I started delegating was kind of by force, because we got so busy that I just wasn't physically or mentally capable of doing it all anymore and I had to start giving things away or the ball would completely get dropped and I wasn't juggling it well anyway.

Addie Reinhard: 26:19

And so it started usually when I would go on trips for work and I wouldn't have time to do things while I was on the trip, and so I would ask somebody to like do the thing while I was away. And then when I when it happened and it happened well, and I didn't have to do it I was suddenly like, oh, delegating is not as hard as I recognized, and if I just let go of the fact that this isn't going to get done exactly the way that I want it, but it's still getting done and we're still moving forward, then that's a win. So that's been. I think my biggest area of growth is just learning to. Effective delegation also requires that you prepare your people for that moment, and I think I over-prepare my people. They're just like Addie we had it.

Stacey Cordivano: 27:08

There are systems in place, we get it.

Addie Reinhard: 27:11

There is this beautiful moment. It happened two months ago and it involves you, stacey. So I was out of town at the Western Veterinary Conference. We had just started our spring cohort of the MentorVet LEAP program and Mariel Hendricks is our new director of learning and development. She's been with us for I don't know, about half a year, maybe a little bit more now, and she's taking over onboarding in our programs, which there's a lot to do at.

Addie Reinhard: 27:36

Onboarding there's like scheduling with facilitators, there's like sending out scheduling invites, there's getting everybody's paperwork done, there's getting people access to the curriculum, like there's a checklist of like 15 different things that need to be done. And so Mariel and I, for a couple of times, had done onboarding together and I text her while I was in Vegas and I was like hey, do you want to meet on Thursday for an hour to just go through onboarding? And she texts me back and she said I already did it. I was like you already did it. She's like yeah, and I was like, oh wait, but I forgot. We have, you know, a group of equine vets going through. We need to make sure that they're all together, you know, and make sure that stacy's facilitating that she's like already did it, I'm like you are, you are beautiful, you are, thank you.

Addie Reinhard: 28:22

So. So I think, um, I recognize then, like sometimes I also with delegation, like don't let go soon enough and like let the bird fly from the nest, and I'm like here I can still help you. So I I think that's still an area of growth for me. But but, yeah, delegation has been been huge and just like letting people do their thing and finding people that that know how to do the thing and could be even better, and she's more organized than me even, yeah, more detail oriented, so it ends up being better in the long run, right there's like a little bit of invest.

Stacey Cordivano: 28:55

This is what I've messed up in the past, like there, there needs to be some investment in the front end, right picking the right person, training that person. Well, I think I've sometimes skipped those parts and then been like, oh, this never works, I just have to clean up everything myself. So yeah, we have a new team member coming on board and I'm like I'm not making that mistake again. So yeah, but that's.

Addie Reinhard: 29:18

It's great to hear that you're able to do that and I think, yeah, the other piece I just think about is like I don't know, like giving the people the right tools that they need and then expecting that at first it's going to be more work before it gets better. And I think that's the stage sometimes that I quit and I'm like, like you said, like, oh, this is never going to work. I'm spending twice as much time. Well, yeah, you're spending twice as much time so you can get this person up to speed on where you want them to be, but then after that, you can let go and then you get twice as much time back. So I think that's yeah, sometimes where I hang up on, get hung up on delegation, like I just spent like five hours doing something that would have taken me one hour to do, but it's just short term. Short term, yeah.

Addie Reinhard: 30:03

For those perfectionists out there like just try to ease up a little bit, you know, let go of control, it feels good once you do it. Try to ease up a little bit, you know, let go of control, it feels good once you do it. And then now I have all this extra time to be able to focus on things that actually are super important and matter and help us grow.

Stacey Cordivano: 30:18

Yeah, there's no way you could have grown to this many you know programs if you weren't figuring out a way I would be on the floor right now just like crying, I think. All right.

Addie Reinhard: 30:37

Well, where can people find you or find more information about MentorVet? Yeah, so a few different places. You can follow us on Instagram at MentorVet. We're on Facebook at MentorVet1. We're also on LinkedIn. You can also learn more on our website, which is MentorVetnet. So please check out our programming and if you're interested in learning more, just check us out.

Stacey Cordivano: 30:53

Great, I'll put all those links in the show notes. Thanks for coming back. It was so great to talk to you again. This was a blast. Thank you for having me.

Stacey Cordivano: 31:03

Thanks again for listening to today's episode. I so very much appreciate you spending some of your time with me. I know how valuable it is. If you want to do me a favor, please share this episode or any of the episodes with a friend to spread the word, and you can also hit subscribe or follow wherever you listen to podcasts to make sure you never miss another episode. I hope you have a great week and I'll talk to you again soon.